In an old post entitled Fucking Jävla Skit Language, Watch me sleep discussed a problem encountered by teachers of English in Germany too:
Taboo swear words are probably among the first thing a second language learner learns if they have a teenage mentality. But while it’s easy to master swear words, I don’t think you ever really internalise the depth of feeling associated with the taboo.
I don’t even know how offended most native speakers of English are when they hear the F word being overused, and whether they are more offended in the USA than in Britain, but as someone who grew up amidst a lot of swearing (not all elicited by me), I find myself seeing the swearer as younger and less competent.
(Via Language Log)
There is obviously huge cultural diversity around this topic. There are many less shocking expressions to be considered as obscene and taboo in Britain and America than many of those that teenagers in Finland and Sweden use without hesitation and can even be printed or heard in public radio and TV. The customary beep sound in British and American TV and radio does not exist here. It is considered to be extremely odd and hypocritical. To tell you the truth, the beep tends to irritate me much more than the expressions that are being beeped away ever could.
Yes, of course you would say that, but you don’t understand the native speaker’s viewpoint. I say that if you were British you would see things differently. By the way, I’m not familiar with the beep on British TV (I do remember the word was banned on TV up to the 1960s, of course) – I think you’re thinking of American prudery. I’m just talking about the weight of the word in everyday conversation, not on TV. If Scandinavian teenagers use the English word fuck all the time in their own languages, that’s something else. If they use it in English, in quite a variety on contexts, they aren’t aware of its weight.
The beep is definitely a part of British TV today Margaret … certainly before the so-called “watershed” (when all little and not so little kiddies should be safely tucked up in bed). After that, “the F-word” is commonly used. Last night on ITV, Ann Widdicombe, one of my favourite plain-speaking MPs, spending a week as a guest of residents in two particularly run-down council estates in London, was subject to hails of abuse such as “F*** off you fat slag” (clearly audible and not beeped out) when asking hoodies why they wore hoods and smoked dope on the street.
Seeing as most 5 year-olds use the word among themselves these days, I consider the beep phenomenon to be highly antiquated and indeed pathetic.
Paul
Paul: in that case it’s a more recent phenomenon as part of the lamentable PC wave.
Irrespective of what rundown council estate tenants shout at Ann Widdecombe (a woman I can’t stand, I must admit!), do you think Germans and Scandinavians who use the F word left, right and centre when abroad blend into the landscape?
My co-workers will often swear in English in the middle of an entirely German conversation. Apparently sounding like an English-speaker who isn
A Christian blog that I often visit includes frequent sympathetic references to the “Jesus Freak” movement in Germany. I sometimes follow the links (I am sympathetic too), and I sometimes come up against the f-word used in ways that I doubt you would find it used in Christian circles in the US or UK.
However, these folks also push over language taboos in their native German. For example, I came across a sermon entitled “Gott ist kein Arschloch” (presumably about the role of God when we run into difficult circumstances).
Not the sort of language I would use or that I find easy to relate to in either language. But I sympathise with the underlying aim of breaking out of traditional language models.
Aidan: I won’t dispute your youth, but I imagine you are a competent speaker of English. I meant appearances, though – the way they are perceived.
Victor: This is a very complex topic. I have my opinions but probably one would need huge studies of all levels of the populace to decide anything meaningful.
Still, I think that Christians who are deliberately using such language for their own religious purposes are a different category from what I was thinking of!
I was not refering to that particular word being used in Finland and Sweden but to some very rude Finnish and Swedish expressions that are printed and broadcast and indeed used by school kids in presence of their teachers. I have seen much cleaner expressions beeped away in BBC and American networks. The equally common usage of the English F word sounds clean if compared to those expressions.
An average secondary school student can freely make sentences where approximately every third word would be a vulgar Finnish word for the female reproductive organ. This goes as much for girls as boys. They could also address their parents or teachers as faggots with no intention to insult and in many cases that sort of language would not prompt the slightest protest.
>>Paul: in that case it’s a more recent phenomenon as part of the lamentable PC wave.
Irrespective of what rundown council estate tenants shout at Ann Widdecombe (a woman I can’t stand, I must admit!), do you think Germans and Scandinavians who use the F word left, right and centre when abroad blend into the landscape?
Larko: Ah, I see. I suppose I would risk being fooled like Bill Bryson if I went to Finland.
Fair enough.
I must repeat that the use of bleeps on TV is a separate matter – I wasn’t thinking about TV – and I think the situation in the USA is different from that in Britain.
Paul: What don’t I like about Ann Widdecombe. I agree it’s OK to admit you’re a virgin at an advanced age. I don’t particularly like her manner, which reminds me of some schoolmistresses I have known (but not all). OK, I realize that a lot of English men like to have a domineering nanny-like figure.
I object most to her views on making abortion more difficult and supporting Section 28 of the LGA re homosexuality, and I think she was stupid to call for prosecution of every single case of cannabis use. Have I forgotten anything?
>>OK, I realize that a lot of English men like to have a domineering nanny-like figure.
I was just referring to what they said about Thatcher, Paul – no offence intended!
Surely this Ruth Kelly favoured by Tony Blair is just the same as Ann Widdecombe.
I do approve of people cutting the bullshit and speaking their minds, but I prefer it if I agree with their opinions!
“Surely this Ruth Kelly favoured by Tony Blair is just the same as Ann Widdecombe.”
Entirely different I would say Margaret. Ruth Kelly is basically a little girl with an over-PC agenda in a grown-up, important job.
Ann is a grown-up, admittedly big, girl who should be doing an important job and whose sole agenda is her own conviction that there is basically something wrong with the way that crime is being dealt with. She also likes cats … You have to agree with her on that…?
“I do approve of people cutting the bullshit and speaking their minds, but I prefer it if I agree with their opinions!”
I find nothing wrong with that Margaret
Paul
“Frischling”? Ich wusste nicht, dass beim American Football auch kleine Wildschweine mit von der Partie sind. ;-)
“I do approve of people cutting the bullshit and speaking their minds, but I prefer it if I agree with their opinions!”
I think you have unanimity on this very quotable quote (which has the potential to go round the world as an immortal aphorism!).
In other words, we would all agree with you – but we would probably all have a different unspoken sub-text in mind as we do so!
This woman, Paul, left the Church of England because it was allowing women priests and became a Catholic.
Anders als Angsthasen und Fetts
Hi Margaret,
I assume that your background info on Ms. Widdecombe’s ecclesiastical preferences is completely neutral, factual and dispassionate.
I don’t know that it’s neutral and dispassionate, but I think it’s true. Do you think not?
Dass dort auch Angsthasen und Fetts
Ja, das “Fast-ein-Meter” ist fast das beste.
“Gesichtsgef
Can’t say I’ve been following Ms. Widdecombe’s career (I am more in touch with German politics than the Brit variety).
But since you ask, I accept as true your “background info on Ms. W.’s ecclesiastical preferences”, i.e.: “This woman, Paul, left the Church of England because it was allowing women priests and became a Catholic”, and also your report on her stance on homosexuality and drug use.
Whether these opinions put her beyond the pail as far as active participation in the democratic process is concerned, is another question. From what I have read, I would sympathise with some (but not all) of her views. But the fact that she questions many of the a priori PC dogmas does give her a certain sympathy value (although I suspect I may not be comfortable with the way she does it).
In political discourse, people who advocate unpopular moral standards are sometimes hounded out of court without a fair discussion of the underlying issues. (No wonder she’s against fox hunting!)
She went to a very strict RC school, but when she became a Catholic in 1993 (and others did too), it was stated to be for that reason. But I admit I am not really in touch with British politics. In fact, we have a little dispute going on here between three people who’ve been living outside Britain for many years.
Paul started this discussion saying that AW is unfairly ridiculed, and you say that too. Well maybe so, but she has always invited controversy and I imagine she’s able to take as good as she gives.
I don’t like PC either, but some of the things PC usage claims to protect are meaningful.
I don’t think I implied she was beyond the (shit?) pail.
I am a brit living in the netherlands. The dutch youth have almost stopped swearing and cursing in their own language. The have adopted the english “fuck you” but with their pronunciation it comes out as fok yu. I keep asking them , “do you know the chinaman”? Also on dutch tv the word shit is used by the most polite and sophisticated. they haven’t a clue that it is swearing. they use it like they word ah! They want to be cool and because they learn english at school and watch american tv programmes they misguidedly think they know the language.
This sounds very familiar!